The Savage Dragon vs. WildC.A.T.s
Jason:
Ok, so WildC.A.T.s is pure 90’s. Jim Lee is the guy who added more pockets and muscles to comics.
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Batman Beyond vs. Challenge of the Superfriends
Now, this is a real fight! Style against a complete lack of style. Kitch taking on glitz. The 70’s punching in out against the 90’s, but the 70’s isn’t allowed to punch, so it just sort of hugs it out!
Jason: Ok so first off this show isn’t that bad. But what I’m talking about is specifically “Challenge of the Super Friend”. There are 9 different versions of “Super Friends” running from 1973-1986! What we’re talking about is Challenge of the Super Friends 1978-1979.
The show is two segments: the first one is with the usual Bat, Superman, Wonder Woman and then the ridiculous Wonder Twins and their monkey. Yah, a monkey so kids can relate to it because cartoon characters aren’t enough by themselves they need a monkey. Ah the 70’s.
‘Cause everything is better with a monkey.
The second half featured Green Lantern and then a Samurai (named Samurai), Black Vulcan, and Apache Chief of the JLA fighting the Legion of Doom, so you’d have to wait (yeah that’s right kids we’d actually have to wait till the shitty part of the show was done till it got to the good stuff).
So this show has a couple of good points. JLA is cool because you get to see the DC team up and fight some pretty badass villains. This was really the first attempt I can think of to explain and expand the DC universe outside of the comic books. Which in case you’re living under a rock, is exactly what Marvel is doing right now with its live action stuff MCU. So it was ahead of its time in a way.
Ok, so that’s the good stuff. Notice it’s short ,right? So it’s the 70’s and the animation isn’t great compared to the 40 + years between then and now. It’s monster of the week with very little over-arching plot. But the show is about the “Characters” right? Yeah right. Batman in this is still essentially Adam-West-campy and literally uses “Bat-Lube” to escape Solomon Grundy at one point. Everyone else is either Freddy, Velma or Daphne while the fucking Monkey makes dumb-dumb noises, and the Wonder Twins turn into stupid things. I don’t know who decided that this show needs comic relief, or that it was more important for us to see Aquaman, Batman and Wonder Woman react to the twins bathing the monkey than to… say battling one of the villains or trying to save the world. Same writer who came up with that compelling “Bat-Lube” line no doubt
.
This show was very much a product of its time; slightly sexist, slightly racist, a little dumb. But it’s the first step and about as watchable as Fantastic Four ’78. Both these shows are time capsules of the era they were made in. This one just happens to be filled with polyester, mustaches and funky trumpets.
Scott: Challenge of the Superfriends has some real upsides that’ I’d like to touch on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL8i_AnZQ18
First off, the show had an amazing cast of villains in the Legion of Doom. If you go back and take a look at those 60’s and 70’s hero cartoons, you’ll see an awful lot of wonky, made for TV villains. Spider-Man versus the giant green cat. Flash fights the yellow aliens. Stuff like that. But here, we get Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Captain Cold, Gorilla Grodd, Cheetah, Solomon Grundy, Bizarro, Giganta, Toyman, Sinestro, Scarecrow, Black Manta and the Riddler.
Any piece of superhero entertainment is only as good as it’s villains. That’s why “The Avengers” was good (Loki), and “Age of Ultron” was bad (Sassy Robot).
Black Manta is a great villain for a cartoon. that voice? C’mon!
The Legion of Doom is exceptional as a foil for the Superfriends. They mean business, and they are always out to destroy the heroes and conquer the world. They have the coolest characters and they hang out in the coolest secret base this side of Cobra Commander. Solid gold.
Secondly, can you image how ballsy it must have been to introduce Samurai, Black Vulcan and Apache Chief on a kids cartoon? Stereotypes aside, they created an Asian, a Native-American and an African-American hero and just tossed them out there. That’s so progressive, it happens even before the actual Justice League of America comic book. Heck, even Giant-Size X-Men #1 was only 3 years out at that point (where they introduce the new globally-sourced team with Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Thunderbird, Banshee, and Wolverine on the team).
And yes, Samurai, Black Vulcan, and Apache Chief are far from perfect, but I still want to applaud the intent. They didn’t have to create these guys for a show like this, but they did.
Jason: Out of the 70′s and straight into the 90′s, where we dream of mid-21st century William Gibson cyberpunk style.
If you want to get into character for this one, go read Virtual Light. (Or alternatively, listen to the audio book as read by Perter Weller. Yeah that’s right, ROBOCOP!)
So this show is built on the road paved by Batman TAS, it has the same voices as Batman TAS. Notably Kevin Conroy, and Mark Hamill and really is a continuation of that show. That being said, it’s great. Starts off strong with lots of moral conflicts. Batman is really himself in this show, the kid he picks as his successor is rough around the edges but watching his character develop is great. The writing on this show is tight, and it actually creates more than it draws on the old Batman canon. The animation isn’t as slick as we’ve seen from some of the shows past the 2000 mark but considering this show is now 17 years old it’s pretty solid. The intro sequence is nice, blending cool computer stuff with classic animation. This show is a true successor to Batman TAS. More than just a dystopian ( that’s how they thought the future would be) laugh fest like Space 1999. This show catches the same vibe as Bladerunner, the future setting is just the setting, the story is the real highlight here. I think those of us who remember the 90′s will get a kick out of it and those who don’t won’t get the same nostalgia high but will still be able to enjoy the heart of the story.
As well, this show has a true beginning, middle, and end. After 3 seasons the true series finale had to be done on an episode of The Justice League Unlimited episode “Epilogue”, which neatly ties up all the great loose plot threads from the show.
Great show all around. This is one of the shows I point to when I start making my case that cartoons shifted in the last twenty or so years, to cater and grow with the audience from the 80′s as we age.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMXjtvMAFlI
Scott: Hunh.
You’re really hot for Batman Beyond.
Here’s the major downfall of the show for me: Who is Terry’s nemesis?
Hint: It’s not Joker, because he’s clearly still Bruce Wayne’s, as shown in “Return of the Joker”.
Batman Beyond, in direct opposition to Challenge of the Superfriends, has no great villains. The Jokerz? Derivative. Derek Powers? Electric Lex Luthor rip-off. Inque? Who?
I think it’s very telling that the best episode of Batman Beyond takes place in Justice League Unlimited with “Epilogue”.
Jason: True, no strong villain rises up to challenge the new Batman, while “Challenge” has a whole room full of them, (points for “Challenge”). But as a counterpoint, the protagonist isn’t clear in Super Friends either. If it’s based on screen time then it’s these asshats:
So Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman are playing second fiddle to a female version of Beast Boy and a dude who can turn into water (for which to wash his space monkey). Where does the dirt go Zan, when you’re washing the poop off your monkey? It goes in the water Zan, that means it’s in you!
I just can’t get behind that.
Burn in hell Gleek!
Scott: I will not have you disparage the Wonder Twins, Jay.
Gleek is annoying, I will grant you that. But the Wonder Twins are delightful imps, getting in and out of trouble in a stuffy, tight collared world.
Jason: Ok so take two hits of acid and form of a couch potato.
While I load up on Jolt cola and listen to Rollins band jabber on about a conspiracy theory. Wonder Twins and and weak bad guys aside, Batman Beyond is a clear winner here.
Scott: I’ll give it to BB, but it’s not clear. The edge is the one-two punch of Old Man Bruce Wayne and Ace, the Bat-hound.
The winner, by a silicon filament: Batman Beyond!
Jason’s Scores:
Challenge of the Superfriends
Animation quality: 3
Writing, 2
Voices, 2
Story: 2
Fun: 3
Nostalgia: 3
Innovation: 2
17/35
Batman Beyond
Animation quality: 3
Writing: 5
Voices: 3
Story: 4
Fun: 5
Nostalgia: 3
Innovation: 3
27/35
Batman Beyond advances, but stay tuned as next we pit “The Savage Dragon” against “WildC.A.T.s” in an all-Image throwdown!
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Scott: So, I just want to say that “The Incredible Hulk” from 1982 has possibly the greatest theme song of all time. You can have your Spider-Man ’67 and your Batman: TAS, but they don’t come close to the epic thundering march of this song. It’s glorious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoirUZQzYIw
That said, the rest of the show is a real mixed bag. The Hulk in this show is a great version of the character. The simple rampaging monster that is almost at war with Bruce Banner is a lot of fun, and the new cartoons rarely touch on that side. The real problem is the rest of the cast; Rick Jones is all over the place, swinging wildly from sidekick to annoying hindrance. Major Talbot is a serviceable toady, but they lean too heavily on him. Betty Ross is an awful character incapable of staying out of trouble. The villains are straight up strange choices for Hulk to fight. I mean, one episode has Hulk up against Doctor Octopus, and that’s just weird.
Jason: I can’t agree more about the title theme song. Either as pump music for the gym or getting you to work in the morning, this is one of those that truly hits the tuning fork in the primal areas of your brain. If ever I go on a rampage then this song will be on loop under my luchador mask.
So this one was back to back with Spider-man and his Amazing friends, so this whole hour of TV was pure awesome for me. Animation quality was fine for the time, and they weren’t doing anything new. I think there was even a crossover with Spider-man and his Amazing friends, and just like that show Stan Lee’s iconic voice introduced each show. This is one of the few Hulk’s I’ve seen out of print that really plays up that the hulk and Banner are separate personalities in the Dr.s head, and the Hulk really hates banner. That is an aspect of the true inspiration for Hulk Jeckle and Hyde. All in all a great baseline for the complex Green Giant and this one has a special place in my heart.
Scott: Hulk and the Agents of SMASH, man. I watched a bit of it when it first hit Netflix and bit last night, and this cartoon commits that cardinal sin of entertainment television; it is boring.
Following on the heels of Ultimate Spider-Man and Avengers Assemble, (both of which are great, snappy shows), SMASH tries really hard to follow the game plan. But it fails pretty badly. The team has almost no chemistry, and it fails to both challenge the Hulks in any dramatic way and to showcase their strength with any sense of awe.
I know you like this one Jay, so gimmie something here.
Jason: OK so I’m a big fan of Agents of S.H.E.I.L.D, and I know this caught my eye for that reason originally. Right away the problem we’re having I believe is Hulk himself. The Hulk is Mr. Hyde, the dark side of all folks who just wanna smash shit. So right away we’re dealing with a late version Hulk who:
1. Doesn’t transform, and
2. Acts like a calm Leonardo type instead “Hulk SMASH!”
What makes this work though for this particular format is the rest of the team. When Captain America is around we don’t need smart or controlled Hulk to remind us of Dr. Jekyll inside the Hulk. This show has big Mr. Green basically being Captain A to a team of Hulks. Red Hulk is great, he totally is Rafael. Voiced perfectly by Clancy Brown, or as I like to think of him: Mr Krabs with [Seth Green as] A-Bomb filming the whole thing for web series. I think that adds an innovative twist to the format of the show more than just monster of the week. Skaar is the mindless violence we all love about Hulk. The animation is a lot like all the modern cartoons.
The second problem (I know you’ve got with this one Scott) is it’s very light-hearted, family friendly and almost hokey slapstick. It’s a fun departure from the dark gothic roots of Jekyll and Hyde, but it’s very fun and lots of fourth wall breaks and cameos from the Marvel Universe keep it fun for me.
So I call this one Fun Hulk, not Dark Hulk, which we have yet to see out of print.
So here is my issue; according to my scoring system, we got a tie. What do I do? Well, it’s a coin flip and really the New Hulk and Agents of SMASH is a better cartoon only by standing on the shoulders of Hulk 82′. It’s a Tale of Two Hulks, and I call this a win for the younger one. That was a tough choice, though.
Scott: I dunno, opening sequence alone puts ’82 up there for me, but I will concede that Hulk and the Agents if SMASH is more complex and refined.
Jason: Yep, and trust me that opening sequence nearly trumps more than 30 years of cartoon and story development. Hulk 82′ vs Hulk and agents of smash 2013. To anyone reading our articles I encourage you to watch both and decided for yourself. It will make you feel better, but of course as always were right.
The winner, by a green hair, Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H.!
Jay’s scores:
Incredible Hulk 82’
Animation quality: 3
Writing: 3
Voices: 3
Story: 3
Fun: 5
Nostalgia: 5
Innovation:2
24/35
Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H.
Animation quality: 4
Writing: 3
Voices: 4
Story: 3
Fun: 5
Nostalgia: 2
Innovation: 3
24/35
So that’s how the bracket looks right now! Stay tuned for the next fight, where Batman Beyond will take on Challenge of the Superfriends!
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And here we go!
The first battle is…
Silver Surfer (1998) vs Fantastic Four (1978)
Jason: Silver Surfer is a good cartoon, innovative early combination of Compute and traditional animation. The story was obscure as comics go, Silver surfer is no Spider-Man, but still very popular. The problem with Aliens as heroes or the innocents the hero must save is making them human enough to be relatable, but still keep the flavor of their alien-ness. This show makes the aliens to be too naive or too weak for them to be compelling, and it makes it hard to care about them.
But it is a solid show and worth the time to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su7GJsbT2xI
Scott: Here’s the thing about these two shows; while neither of them is great, they both are extremely improved by partaking in chemical enhancements. On their own they’re okay, but smoke a joint and suddenly they’re fantastic (pun intended). Silver Surfer draws so heavily from the Jack Kirby art, that it practically screams for you to watch while on a hallucinogen.
Jason: Well here we go. this Fantastic Four cartoon is mostly notable because they were terrified that kids would set themselves on fire to be Johnny Storm, so we get no Human Torch and instead, we get a super-annoying robot. Stan Lee must have written this script when he was drunk and high. Reed Richards sounds like super patronizing and misogynistic Don Draper after a few martinis. They aren’t really doing anything new here, its weird to think that only a few short years later we get the much better Spider-Man and his amazing friends. This is only worth a watch to see how bad it is.
Scott: I want to say, that for your view of FF, that you’re so wrong about the voice acting. It is top notch. All four members sound distinct, true to the characters, and clear. Thing and Mr. Fantastic are not gonna get mixed up in your head. Herbie’s voice is annoying, but Herbie is supposed to be annoying, so it works.
Jason: Herbie is a fun as Herpes. MUHAHAHHAHA Magneto doesn’t just throw out a mere diss, he drops super magnetic disses that stick to you like grandma Logan’s cookie recipe sticks to the fridge. MMHAHAHAHH.
True the voices are distinct. Maybe it is just slightly stilted simplistic dialogue that bogs it down. Still better than most of the Fantastic Four movies.
Scott: Better than all of the FF movies.
Distinct, and authentic voice acting. Contrast that with Silver Surfer, where everything is delivered at either “bored family dinner” or “Charles Xavier yelling at Liliandra” levels with no in-between, then FF really shines.
All that to say that Silver Surfer still wins this one, hands down. The art in this cartoon is special. It pops more than almost anything else in this challenge, and the use of computer graphics with traditional cell animation is actually (against all odds) wonderful.
Jason: Silver Surfer wins, agreed. But watch out sports fans the next round might just be the end of the line for the Sliver kahuna, as he goes up against the big bad BATMAN:TAS ! One of my odds on favorites to take this whole thing.
Jason’s scorecard:
Silver Surfer:
Animation quality: 4
Writing: 4
Voices: 3
Story: 3
Fun: 3
Nostalgia: 1
Innovation: 3
22/35
Fantastic Four (1978)
Animation quality: 2
Writing: 2
Voices: 2
Story: 3
Fun: 2
Nostalgia: 2
Innovation: 2
15/35
And the winner is:
Spider-Man (1994) vs Captain Planet
Scott: This is a tougher one than you might think. Spider-Man was a nice, long running show, and it told great Spidey stories, but some of those episodes are so convoluted. “Sins of our Fathers” has something like 19 parts to it.
Captain Planet might seem like a joke, but that origin story is great, and the rings of elemental power are pretty sweet.
Except for heart. They should have given heart to the American kid to at least try and make it cool.
Jason: The Spider-Man animation was constantly good, the writing was straight out of the comics and the voices were good. Venom show up, as well as Carnage, cross over with Blade, and others. Blend of CGI and cell animation that gives it a very 90’s look. This one was on right next to BATMAN TAS, so it was a good block of cartoon time.
While it’s not perfect it did portray a lot of the moral conflicts Peter Parker has, really allows the kids to see him as a person, the true ‘everyman’ of super hero’s. Truth to tell it’s not my favorite of the Spider-Man cartoons, but it is a really solid definitive version. Truly solid cartoon.
The long series are a half step between the ‘monster of the week’ formula and the true ‘meta-plots’ that were seeing now with Young justice.
Scott: I’m not saying it’s a bad show, but they made some weird choices. Alistair Smythe is one of the major bad guys for season one. Uggh. But, season 5 has the Secret Wars, and that was damn fine cartooning.
Jason: Aye aye. Love the Secret Wars.
Ok so by its very nature (pun intended) its easy to make fun of and crap on Captain Planet. But upon deeper review, there were some very good things int there. Captain Planet was preachy about the environment, but as we see the polar ice caps melting 20 years later maybe there was something to it that we should have absorbed more.
Also, it was a cartoon that took on surprisingly adult themes and issue. They covered HIV/ADIS, also I have to get some props to a cartoon that goes back in time to fight Hilter.
The voice talent on this show was huge. Neil Patrick Harris, Dan Ackroyd, Elizabeth Taylor!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdEbFVlRMcU
That being said, it’s easy to make fun of this cartoon for a reason. The charters were essentially 2-dimensional cut-outs of what you’d expect. I think the real problem with this show was a disappointment. At its core the message was good, but it was ham-fisted down kids throats. The over exaggerated nature of the cartoon keeps anyone from taking the very serious message with any degree of …gravitas? (Fuck, did I just use the word gravitas?)Other hero teams get the job done themselves, but Captain Planet relies on the judge of a super-powered elemental white man to fix everyone’s problems with a punch or tidal wave. Even Voltron and the Megazord were piloted by the team. Captain Planet’s team just summons their golem of natural disaster and stand and watch smiling while Hurricane Katrina wipes away that oil spill and yanks the fat pig man out of his office into the gulf of Mexico.Look at that, I got through this whole rant without picking on the Latina kid, his monkey and the stupidity of his ‘Heart’ power. Ah nuts!
Scott: While the message might be great, it’s just not cool enough.
Jason: Clearly Spider-Man clears the Captain off the board.
The Winner…
Jason’s scorecard:
Spider-Man (1994)
Animation quality: 4
Writing: 4
Voices: 3
Story: 3
Fun: 4
Nostalgia: 3
Innovation: 3
24/35
Captain Planet
Animation quality: 3
Writing: 2
Voices: 3
Story: 1
Fun:2
Nostalgia: 2
Innovation:2
14/35
Let’s take a look at where we’re at.
Some tough battles are coming up, and our winners today are in tough in the next round, for certain!
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Welcome to “Know More Than You”, where Jason and I will be discovering what truly is the greatest cartoon from Saturday mornings and after school afternoons past.
This will be a herculean undertaking, and after much research, we have narrowed down the candidates to a mere 96 contenders. We will be relying on our experience and expertise in order to discuss and dissect the animated aspirants, and as true aficionados, we are prepared to discover, once and for all, what the greatest ‘toon is.
Let us take a look at group one; “Heroes and Spies”.
You can see that we’ve seeded the shows, and some of the top contenders have received byes into the second round.
“Batman: The Animated Series” has to be considered a top contender, but I wouldn’t count out an upstart like “Young Justice” or a classic like “GI Joe A Real American Hero” either.
As we break the head-to-head battles down, we’ll try to find some online videos for each battle so you can watch along with us, here on Know More Than You!
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